Originally by: Sworn Absent

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Originally by: CCP Chronotis

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excellent clarity of vision I must say!

It is true and something we said from outset that unbalanced alliances who are 95% PvP/Fleet and 5% industry will be most affected by this as we are reducing their dependency on passive point sources and introducing greater active resource density to allow for passive income to take over.

The alliances who will benefit most are those who have or aim to have balanced compositions of people with different playstyles or even act as enforcers or protectors of the space with multiple rental agreements if they wish and we will add tools as we call the treaty system to help facilitate that.

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So you basically want to take the sand out of the sandbox and force alliances to operate in a particular way. Cool.

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Originally by: cok cola

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YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.

THIS NEEDS ANSWERING CCP, WERE ALL ASKING, WERE ALL WAITING FOR A RESPONSE.

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Originally by: Bobby Atlas

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This thread lost most of its value at page 60, stop ****ting the place up - post something on topic and constructive or do not post at all.

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Originally by: Korodan

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Edited by: Korodan on 09/11/2009 01:04:12

Originally by: Alice Teal

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PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!!
Here's how you integrate it into the storyline: the pirate faction (say, Angels for Angels Extravaganza) give you a "countermission": Stop the Missioner.

They put a 30 minute module on you which jams Concord's sensors.

This would fix Eve.

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Quoting this because it needs to happen.

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Originally by: Hratli Smirks

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YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.




This is a really good question, and I bet CCP really doesn't want to answer it

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Originally by: Hertford

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Originally by: Alekanderu

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moon mining =/= individual isk making, i don't know why people have such a hard time grasping this relatively simple concept

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Because they're mouth-breathing, semi-literate, uninformed and clueless, and can't resist entering into debate with the classic unbiased apolitical no-hidden-agenda-honest "lol goonie tears" tactic.

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Originally by: Pointfive

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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Quote:

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Terrible deadspace rats with awful loot/bounties.

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No. Upgraded deadspace rats that generate income comparable to running level 4's, that respawn instantly and without limit.

Just keeping you honest, carry on.

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There is a limit and that limit is 10. That limit is a lot less than level 4's which is infinity. Also the vast majority of level 4s are run in empire. The low sec and nullsec level 4s are not attracting the hordes of people to come do those. Because slightly increased gain for infinitely increased risk does not work. Giving the same reward for even more risk is just insulting.

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Originally by: Breaker77

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Kinda funny that after goons, unaffiliated make up almost as much as everyone else combined.

Oh and lets not forget that goons control Delve which is rich in NPC 0.0 and some of the best truesec in EVE.

If they are *****ing about making ISK then something is wrong with the expansion.

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Originally by: Crias Taylor

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We goons have bath tubs to fill with sweet, sweet isk. These bathtubs are president Taft size and we really don't care what insults are thrown unless attacking you is going to steal your bathtub of isk to fill ours.

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Originally by: Super Whopper

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Who cares that the alliance is rich, the individual member will never see any of the benefits because they're expected to rat and mine. It's the leadership that fly Titans, motherships and have dozens of personal carriers and dreads. While this is corrupt it's the way it is and to force the individual member earn less is stupid beyond belief.

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Originally by: Lolion Reglo

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numbers and a variety of people over timezones is practically a requirement for operating out here.... so restart those recruitment drives, you'll need the numbers.

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Originally by: ZenAndNow

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@ Future Mutant:

All I can say sir is that, as a ~3 month newbie to the game, in my opinion you are an idiot. Would I like to go to null sec? Sure. If there were incentives other than finding out what it was like.

You see, I can run L4 missions and easily pay for plex. If I wanted to learn to PvP I would go join Red vs Blue. So why should I go to null sec? It can't be because of the isk, because unless you've got moon mining on an R64 (whatever that is) it sounds like you'll never be rich. If you'll never be rich, then you'll be more conservative with your ships. So there'll be less things to pew at, and less ability to pew at things. There goes the PvP.

So tell me Oh Intelligent One: why should I go to null sec? What possible incentive is there other than e-peen enlargement - something that doesn't appeal to me.

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Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

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This is a PvP game, where PvE is completely badly made (unlike IE WoW or other games, where PvE got a lot of focus and "care") and thus uninsteresting.

Now there's the catch: they can't do like you say and "If you want to shoot ships- then by all means shoot ships." because to shoot ships you need to grind the yawnsome PvE.
Now, since it's PvPers and the PvE is yawnsome, they want to get rid off grinding their next ship ASAP.
But wait, those PVEing in hi sec don't lose ships but earn more in hi sec than those who actually lose their ships in 0.0?

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Originally by: Vadinho

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theyre taking money out of nullsec while increasing the cost to live there thats the problem that the entire problem

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Originally by: Vadinho

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Originally by: Future Mutant

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so your corp (which is shoveled moon goo income) is now expected to actually pay some of that isk out for infrastructure?

I dont see the problem.

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oh we are fine weve got money to burn

if you had read any given one of the other one hundred and fifteen pages youd note that without things to fight over (which are currently just r64s and nothing else) there wont be the kind of big flashy wars ccp loves to advertise because nobody is going to put a capfleet on the line for anomalies

hope you like the boarders as theyre currently drawn because thats where theyll stay without something to fight for

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Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

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Quote:

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If the large alliances truly thought that level 4's were so much more profitable and easier to run they'd be running them!

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They run them. Now, while I am new-ish to the game so I am not bothered yet, I know corp mates that along with many others are asking to *change* the fact they have to run L4s in empire. Because you are just stating that you want the status quo, that is everything stays as of today and everyone has to have 2 accounts to farm L4 in hi sec.

Why, if EvE is a sandbox game, someone has to be forced a path?

Actually EvE is worse than WoW in this. In WoW once you are done with the tutorials, you are thrown in increasingly hostile territory like in most other games.

In EvE, once you are done with the tutorial you... stay in the starting territory and get the best deals with the least downsides.

Everyone even 0.0 players (ie not the directors that can milk the moons *and this cannot change in Dominion (no change in the privileges system afaik)) have to be forced and farm L4s.

This is a false sandbox.

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Originally by: Kayl Breinhar

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Edited by: Kayl Breinhar on 18/11/2009 00:46:40

Originally by: Kalexander

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It's really not just a matter of money either, because if fresh fish can make enough money to account for the risks over level 4's, then the big fish in the sea are going to be able to pump so much isk into the game that the economy is liable to crash.

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Yes, except that the lifetime L4 runner with billions pretty much lets it stagnate on the whole. They buy a CNR, fit it with faction, deadspace, and/or officer gear and do nothing but hoard until they get the spark that it might be fun to use their giant pile of isk to annoy others. Some go blinged-out lowsec ganking route with T3 cruisers, carriers, etc - but on the whole most of them still never really *lose* significant amounts of isk. The only time they're ever put in a position where they can lose a massive chunk is when they find themselves on the other end of a suicide BS gang or don't escape in time to be ambushed when pirating.

The thought of the *average* 0.0 schmo earning on the same pale as them threatens the worth of their money, so they go nuts whenever someone suggests that someone else should make more than them, risk be damned from the equation. That's why some in this thread are busy trying to paint 0.0 denizens as spoiled. So it becomes a case of trying to equate *alliance* wealth with the average 0.0 alliance member, by trying to sell falsitudes like "they get free ships" when the most you ever get is subsidies for loss when you use a regimented fit which aren't meant to reward the person flying them but rather give them incentive to show up and risk the marginal loss in isk and *larger* cost in earning time to become engaged in a protracted conflict.

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Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

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Quote:

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You want as much isk as me- work as hard as me.
Get off your ass you lazy hippies

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Since you don't seem to shine in comprehension: we are already farming L4s. So you can put your "work as hard as me" where the sun does not shine. Plus if you call farming L4 "work", then you don't want to ever put your nose out of your house.

Once again in your failmassive mindset, you just don't get that what you say is *already* here and done. And then, what's the point of an expansion just changing zero? A nice colored .JPG?

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Originally by: Pointfive

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Leve 4 missions are the hand out and you know it. Afking to earn better isk than the people actually risking themselves is a hand out. You are crying people are asking to get rewarded for their work. So you sti here crying, because your safe little magic risk free isk bubble is being questioned. Get a grip future mutant, present idiot.

I am in a large alliance and you knwo how much magic moon isk money ive seen this month? 15 million for a ship loss in one of the few ops that was covered. I still lost 20 million dollars from the ship loss. Yes a ship loss, those happen outside of empire.

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Originally by: Reno Shinra

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Reading through the patch notes and ppl comments this patch is equivalent to the film 2012 - Basickly its dooms day. CCP will undo all the good things about eve and give us basickly africa - with no resources and limited way to expand again. small entities will stay small and large entities will grow smaller. eventually it will be the extinction of the eve comunity. and we can all go and play somthing else.

Funny how in all the post i have read not one replay from ccp on this post.

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Originally by: Chiyoko sama

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CCP,

The introduction of Concord Sovereignty Taxation needs to be removed from the Dominion Patch. This effectively turns 0.0 into nothing more than empire, complete with taxes and all the concord red tape.

At first I had doubts, but relied on the "devs must know their game better than myself". Through actively testing these sov changes on Sisi, I have come to doubt whether the developers still understand how this game works. CCP has prided itself on the largest and best "sandbox game" in the industry, however these sov changes are entirely antithetical to the "sandbox". This is the forced tyranny of concord taxation, with no recourse left to players. Sov will be auctioned to the highest bidder, not the collective warfare and industrial skills of an alliance.

Sov is not something you buy, it is something you fight for.

Please leave us alone and stop trying micromanaging us.

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Originally by: Evil Cain

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this is outrageous paying for systems we have been fighting for the last 3 years or so,another thing is where do you get these numbers from fuel cost is not 4 bill a month per system.Maybe it¦s time to quit the game and move to the next one, Someone has forgotten to take his pills for several months plz send him to the nut house

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Originally by: Tippia

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Edited by: Tippia on 26/11/2009 21:00:01

Originally by: Future Mutant

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Dominion will increase the income a person can make in null- end of story.

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Yes? And? If you pay attention, you'll notice that no-one is actually arguing otherwise.

The argument is that, while you can now earn more (if you choose to pay for it), this "more" is still less than it should be: highsec will still provide far better (not simply "higher") income, which completely ruins the entire point of the expansion.

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Originally by: Boink'urr

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Actually, when thinking about this, it kinda feels like the large 0.0 alliances are becoming the rental pets of Concord They became little 9 to 5 biatches just like the rest of us D:

Somehow, and I'm not even in null so i have no side to pick, it feels a bit odd to have people that wandered into zero protection space pay taxes to a faction that only polices hi sec basically. Why exactly does Concord get to tax these alliances? What mysterious power do they have over these Alliances?

Come to think of it, CCP kinda acts like any generic gouvernment: the answer to any problem is basically TAX-EM!

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Originally by: Tippia

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Originally by: Future Mutant

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I disagree with this entirely. Even before dominion someone in null can make more then they could make in the following activities. Ratting, mining, running anomalies.
More income ratting in null compared to ratting in highsec.
More income mining in null compared to mining in hisec.
More income running anomalies in null compared to running them in hisec.

Im many cases now these activities meet or exceed lvl 4 mission running isk per hour. After dominion they will pay even more.

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No. After dominion, they will pay the same or less. Ratting doesn't change, still requires tons of prep work and will still be limited to a very small number of players per system. Anomalies won't pay more because they're designed not to ù the only ones that might pay more than L4s are the old ones, which suffer the same fate as ratting (aren't affected by dominion, only sustains a very tiny number, most are worthless as it is). Mining isn't worth it as it is, and adding tons of grav-sites doesn't improve things since they're a ***** to empty out and cycle.

So no, it won't be better and it certainly won't pay more. Not because I say so, but because CCP says so.

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Originally by: Tippia

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Originally by: Future Mutant

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See thats an outright lie. Systems can be upgraded to provide more rats, more anomalies, more hidden astroids.

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Oh dear. You haven't read up on what the upgrade system does and what it will provide, have you?

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Originally by: Tippia

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Originally by: Future Mutant

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More rats to shoot= more income.

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àexcept that there isn't a "more rats" upgrade. The closest thing is the "more anomalies" one where the rats are worth far less.

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Originally by: Tippia

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Originally by: Future Mutant

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More anomalies to run= more income

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àexcept that "more income" = "on par with L4s" for the top tier anomalies that the upgrade system will spawn.

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Originally by: Tippia

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Originally by: Future Mutant

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More hidden roids to mine= more income

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àexcept that the market is already saturated and mining is already not worth it. Adding more of something that there's already too much of makes it worth even less. In addition, the gravsite despawn mechanics means you'll either quickly mine out everything valuable and then have to wait for three days, or you'll have to waste time mining worthless ore.

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Originally by: Tippia

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You'd be half-right if you changed the above statements to "income for more people", which is a different thing, but the problem is that CCP have already stated that they fall well short of the goal, at most providing income for an additional 10-20ppl per system rather than the 100 or so they were initially touting. The problem is that this additional sustainability comes at a cost ù a cost that certainly can be paid for by the added income of the upgrades, but that's just it: you pay for upgrades that give you on par income with highsec.

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Originally by: Tippia

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"On par" (at best) income, minus the costs of having the upgrades that give that income = less income than highsec L4s. Oops!

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Originally by: Kayl Breinhar

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FM, what's worse than your fellating of CCP over these changes that will decrease the "competition" you see in 0.0 earning over your L4 mission running (thereby making your isk "worth more" I guess) is that your feigning of understanding of the logic of these changes is moot since you're obviously just going to stay in Empire running missions.

So...congrats on being "Carebear Prime," I guess?

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Originally by: Kayl Breinhar

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Yeah, I guess I'd be an expert if I knew the spawn mechanics of The Blockade down to the second. Doesn't change the fact that you spent half this thread acting like a **** to everyone who plays this game differently than you and now you're purporting to be an expert in a facet of the game that of your own admission you have no interest in now and probably won't post-Dominion.

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